A William Moore & Co. pinfire - seeking information on WM&Co.

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Stephen Nash 218
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Re: A William Moore & Co. pinfire - seeking information on WM&Co.

Post by Stephen Nash 218 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:34 pm

John 39 wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:04 pm
I've found a picture !

http://s90.photobucket.com/user/interne ... sort=3&o=0
Ah, a recapping tool! I have been looking for one of those. I have an array of pinfire reloading tools, but that one has eluded me so far. I have various versions of turnovers, and tools to deal with troublesome pins or separated cartridges, but I'm still hoping for a recapper...

Daryl Hallquist 59
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Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:51 pm

Re: A William Moore & Co. pinfire - seeking information on WM&Co.

Post by Daryl Hallquist 59 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:55 pm

Stephen, not sure if this gives you any help at all, but I have a fairly high quality/condition percussion muzzle loader marked William Moore. There is no serial number, but full proof marks of the time.

Stephen Nash 218
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Re: A William Moore & Co. pinfire - seeking information on WM&Co.

Post by Stephen Nash 218 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:47 pm

Daryl Hallquist 59 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:55 pm
Stephen, not sure if this gives you any help at all, but I have a fairly high quality/condition percussion muzzle loader marked William Moore. There is no serial number, but full proof marks of the time.
Daryl, I would be very interested in knowing what the lock plate and rib inscriptions are. There seems to be quite a variety in how Moore presented his guns.

Daryl Hallquist 59
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Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:51 pm

Re: A William Moore & Co. pinfire - seeking information on WM&Co.

Post by Daryl Hallquist 59 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:35 pm

Stephen, William Moore is on each lockplate, and William Moore London Laminated Steel is on the rib.

John 39
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Re: A William Moore & Co. pinfire - seeking information on WM&Co.

Post by John 39 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:35 pm

It would be interesting to date the gun. If you search for the word "laminated" you'll be directed to William Griffiths and Enoch Yardley. A hammerless single barrel 12 bore shotgun with a Henry Jones underlever that bears the words "Griffiths & Yardley Patent - Laminated Steel" on the rib, has been seen. This may indicate that William Griffiths and Enoch Yardley were partners for a short time in the early 1870s. No patent has been found but these were expensive to obtain and many gun makers claimed a patent they had not registered in order to deter copying. Enoch died in 1874 so this may have been the reason for the end of the partnership.

I'm sure your gun is not a fraudulent Liege copy but William Moore was plagued by Liege gun makers and many copies of his and other makes stated the word "laminated". Laminated steel never really caught on in England and I've certainly never heard of "London laminated" before.

What is interesting about William Moore was that from 1818 to 1853 he lived at Colchester Road, Edgeware. In 1820 he established his own business at that address, but by 1828 his trade had increased to the point where he required larger premises so he opened a shop at 78 Edgeware Road. He was recorded in the 1841 census living at 78a Edgeware Road with his wife, Sarah (b.1806 place of birth unknown) and a servant. No other census entries have been found and the 1851 census records 78a Edgeware Road as being a milliner's shop. So William Moore was recorded in the censuses only once and never heard of again. This has frustrated me for 20 years.

Daryl Hallquist 59
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Re: A William Moore & Co. pinfire - seeking information on WM&Co.

Post by Daryl Hallquist 59 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:21 pm

John, I may have not written clearly. It is William Moore , London then "laminated steel" I have seen laminated steel barrels on many English guns before the use of Damascus began. Trials for barrel performance in the period showed Laminated steel to be a high performer compared to other barrels of the period. Laminated on genuine "English guns is not to be confused with Laminated on lesser Belgian guns.

Stephen Nash 218
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 5:48 pm

Re: A William Moore & Co. pinfire - seeking information on WM&Co.

Post by Stephen Nash 218 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:17 pm

Daryl Hallquist 59 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:21 pm
John, I may have not written clearly. It is William Moore , London then "laminated steel" I have seen laminated steel barrels on many English guns before the use of Damascus began. Trials for barrel performance in the period showed Laminated steel to be a high performer compared to other barrels of the period. Laminated on genuine "English guns is not to be confused with Laminated on lesser Belgian guns.
Interesting. From a sample size of 47 British pinfires, not one has the inscription 'Laminated Steel' on the rib, so I'm presuming that the normal twist barrels of the day were sufficient. My understanding was that laminated steel had a higher steel content than normal damascus twist barrels. WW Greener has a good description/definition of laminated steel twist barrels in his book "The Gun and its Development".

John 39
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Re: A William Moore & Co. pinfire - seeking information on WM&Co.

Post by John 39 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:03 pm

Hi Stephen / Darryl,

I got myself thoroughly confused, of course laminated means a higher proportion of steel than in the usual damascus. I don't have a copy of "The Gun and its Development" but I do have "Modern Shotguns" which has a short piece on gun barrels. As I understand it, Damascus steel was so named simply because Damascus was a major trading centre between India and the rest of the known world. The steel originally found there was Wootz steel made in India in clay pots with wood (in the form of branches and twigs) plunged into it to raise the carbon content. This was hammered out into sword and knife blades and then ultimately, from our point of view, into gun barrels. I have some literature on the subject, just have to find it!

Daryl Hallquist 59
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Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:51 pm

Re: A William Moore & Co. pinfire - seeking information on WM&Co.

Post by Daryl Hallquist 59 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:23 pm

For your information, here are the results of a Birmingham Proof House barrel test. My guess is that it was circa 1880 or a bit later. Note the Laminated performance.

Image

Stephen Nash 218
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 5:48 pm

Re: A William Moore & Co. pinfire - seeking information on WM&Co.

Post by Stephen Nash 218 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:24 pm

I need to correct myself, as I stated earlier that I had never seen a pinfire gun with the rib inscription denoting "Laminated Steel". I have just seen on-line pictures of a W. Wellington 10-bore pinfire gun for sale, with the rib inscription "W. Wellington London Laminated Steel".

I should learn to 'never say never' when it comes to 19th Century gunmaking.

I understand "W. Wellington" was the lower-grade line of the maker William Wellington Greener, mainly for the export trade.

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