Manton 12G

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Dennis K Beecher 918
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:01 am

Manton 12G

Post by Dennis K Beecher 918 »

Hi, new member here. Looking to identify historical data on a "Manton SxS'.
Regardless of history/origin....I Love this Shotgun, it has Beautifull scrolling, patina, and in rather very good shape. I intend to 'wall display', not interested in firing (its retired., like me!). Attached are some pics, 1) is the underside of the barrels, showing I believe 'proof markings', the word 'Roses', the number 14, the word 'Patent', the initials 'C-H', and a marking 'No20'; another picture shows on the top of the barrels, on the band between the barrels...'London Laminated Steel'. And a third picture is of the lock, showing awesome scrolling and the name 'Manton'.. its on both sides).

So , any help is much appreciated. I won't be disappointed of the data, because I still see a lot of beauty in this piece to display.
Thanks !
Denny
Attachments
3LLS.jpg
3LLS.jpg (48.97 KiB) Viewed 2248 times
2Lock.jpg
2Lock.jpg (26.89 KiB) Viewed 2248 times
1marks.jpg
1marks.jpg (48.83 KiB) Viewed 2248 times
John 39
Posts: 452
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 5:30 pm

Re: Manton 12G

Post by John 39 »

I sorry if this reply is disappointing. I am not at all sure about this gun. Is it a Joseph Manton or John Manton? I suspect it is a John Manton, in their later years most of ths frim's guns were Birmingham made. I am certain Joseph would have never have used Rose barrels. Is there any address?? Your pictures are not very clear, it seems to have London proof marks which may be genuine but I suspect the gun was made in Birmingham and only proved in London.

Aaron Rose was recorded as a gun barrel maker at Birch Hill Mill, Halesowen (the spelling of Hales Owen changed from time to time), Worcestershire, from 1841 to 1850.

On 24 October 1850 he patented a method of making barrels with twisting machinery (No.13299); barrels so made are stamped "Rose's Patent". Yours are not twist barrels. London laminated steel usually indicates inferior barrels. A number of pin-fire shotgun barrels (1860-1870) have been seen stamped with "Roses Patent No. 20" but because this patent was not recorded it may have been only a provisional patent, probably for longitudinally welded barrels.

In 1853 the name of the business changed to William and Major Rose.

From 1860 the business traded as Rose Brothers at Hales-Owen Mills and Forge, and they had a retail warehouse selling guns and revolvers at 13 Newton Street, Birmingham. For some time after 1864 this was run by Miss R Rose. The retail warehouse moved in 1870 to 25 Newton Street.

On 3 December 1884 M Rose registered patent No. 15884 for barrels made from sheet steel and longitudinally welded, your gun probably dates from this era. Barrels of mild steel coiled and welded were patented under No. 218 of 1885. On 9 December 1884 W Rose registered patent No. 16147 for barrels made from cast steel and wrought iron.

In 1889 the firm closed the Birmingham warehouse and traded at Halesowen Mill as Rose Tube Co Ltd, the directors of which were Aaron and Benjamin Rose.

I don't know what Number 14 and C-H refer to, mabt the barrel finisher was C-H.
Dennis K Beecher 918
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:01 am

Re: Manton 12G

Post by Dennis K Beecher 918 »

Awesome Information ! Thank you. Genuine Manton is not critical to me. Getting 'history' of the shotgun, regardless of origin, is my interest.

On the side, there is no 'J Manton'...just 'Manton'......combined with the barrels saying 'Rose Patent No20', along with the London Proof stamps all makes quite a 'scratch your head' what is going on here with this shotgun. Based on your info.....the Rose Patent may have been provisional (1860-1870) and used in 1884 on this barrel(based on the 'London Laminated Steel' stamp). Make sense?
But then I question why 'Manton' is stamped on the side.......was there a merger of business......or purchase of parts from one gunmaker to another??

Either way, it does seem to confirm to be a 19th century, English Shotgun. And I really like the tooling and finish.

I wish I could say with confidence tho.....who actually made this shotgun?

If you think of anything else, please do holler. Should you like more pics, I can certainly do that. Oh, and no, I did not see any 'addresses' anywhere on the shotgun.

Thanks again !

Denny
John 39
Posts: 452
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 5:30 pm

Re: Manton 12G

Post by John 39 »

Hi Danny,

You really need to pay the membership fee so that you can look at the
histories of both firms in our database.

John
Dennis K Beecher 918
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:01 am

Re: Manton 12G

Post by Dennis K Beecher 918 »

Uh.....I paid for membership On January 11th.
What am I missing?
Denny
John 39
Posts: 452
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 5:30 pm

Re: Manton 12G

Post by John 39 »

Sorry, didn't know you'd paid ! You aren't missing anything. Just enjoy the gun !
B. Ka'imiloa Chrisman, M.D. 1057
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:40 pm

Re: Manton 12G

Post by B. Ka'imiloa Chrisman, M.D. 1057 »

This is B. Ka'imiloa Chrisman, M.D., long a contributor to the I.G.C. up til about 2006, when a necessitated move to Arizona, U.S.A. led to time needs taking me out of my former Forum writings on several muzzleloader and antique-gun sites. Now I have a bit more time (I hope!) and have rejoined the I.G.C. and its wealth of knowledge.

By pure coincidence, I took photos today of my William Moore and Co. 10 ga.percussion double, because it has on its under-barrel stampings the usual U.K. proof marks (here, Birmingham), plus Roses Patent and "No.20" -- but also an unusual stamp I have never seen before nor is it in my multiple pages of English proof markings. My intent is to learn how to download cellphone photos to this Forum (far better than I could usually get before with quality compact digital camera), and so I took my first look at the I.G.C. Forum in about 14 years and scrolled to the first one of interest at the moment -- this one. I have long loved the true Joe and John Manton guns and have two of them of less expensive nature. Those photos, and my questions about them, will be coming

But imagine my amazement when I read this Thread and found it had the same proof marks and Roses marks as the above
Wm. Moore double, which as London Laminated Steel" on the rear of the top rib, just as the "Manton" gun in this thread.

So, for today, comments:
1) The "Manton" here has Birmingham proof marks which appear to be those of 1855-1868,which were the first changes in the British Proof Laws in quite some time, and specific. More Proof Law changes were to follow as the 19th century wore on, and are very helpful in dating the age of a British gun.
2) This "Manton" gun is well past the time of Joe or John Manton, so it may possibly be related to "Manton and Sons" Company (see the I.G.C. archives on the Manton history, because i have never dug very deeply once it got past the famous Joe and John). But it may also be a knock-off, since there have been many a copy utilizing the "Manton" name on the locks. Belgian in particular. Again, the British Proof Marks aid us.
3) I, too, was under the impression that "Laminated Steel" or "London Laminated Steel" barrels were rather inferior, but only recently learned that that is not the case, and they are actually pretty good. The well known later 1700s, early 1800s "Stub Twist" or just "Twist" barrels were a combination of iron and steel which provided the best qualities of each via overlapping and twisting during the barrel making. Once more automated barrel making appeared in Britain, these twisted, two-part barrels were now called "Laminated Steel". So "Skelp", "Twist" and "Stub Twist" barrels of the older times were very much like the later "Laminated Steel" barrels. See this long and thorough Thread for the whole story:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ub ... 326&page=1
4) As barrel making progressed, the formerly easy-to-see barrel patterns of "Twist" or "Damascus form" were fairly often obscured by the surface-protective "Blacking" or "Browning" techniques. I have restored (and used) many such a British ML gun, and it may well be that they look like modern homogeneous barrels, but a close look at the barrels where the forend protected them from the natural further darkening of the metal will often reveal faint or obvious "twist" patterning. And ditto the top rib, for some reason, perhaps more hand-wear there. Such is exactly the case with the above-mentioned Wm. Moore and Co. ML double. Yes, the "London laminated Steel" barrels do show the twist pattern one might see in a gun made many decades earlier by hand-twist + welding. And this Moore gun is from the same 1855-1868 era as the Manton appears to be.

Aloha, Ka'imiloa
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